Justin and I discuss past, present, and future threats to our security- mostly coming from radical extremism in the middle east. As usual, we don’t always agree…Asymetric Threats and Iran from Justin Bradshaw & Joel Van Brunt on Vimeo.
Iran and extremism - those bearded crazies!
July 7th, 2008 | Sessions
10 comments ↓
This is a comment we received on our Vimeo site on the Sep 28, 2008. It is reposted below for Joel’s response.
USA World Police. Look up the definition of sovereignty guy on the right. This is hilarious that you think you have the right to determine who gets what. Also the US is not Israel, they each have different interest.
Iran has a right to peaceful nuclear power if the US does. In my opinion no one should have N power.
Bottom line, War is only acceptable in Self Defense. Iraq was not that. Iran hasn’t invaded a nation for over a hundred years.
If you can’t tell me the significance of Kirkuk, Baghdad, and Karbala, then you don’t have any right to even talk about IRaq or any history. Guy on the right, read a book.
The USSR fell apart b/c of Afghanistan and economic stagnation. Iraq war 1 Trillion dollars, WALL st. bail out 1 Trillion =US Empire crumbles. Iran has won through patience.
“Iran has western influence” does that mean it’s okay and you wont advocate bombing them?
President Khatami, the reformer, sent a letter in 03 to try and normalize relations. They helped us in 01. US missed the boat.
Iran called for a referendum that allows the Palestinians to vote and exiled ones to return and vote. He meant the Zionist regime should be eliminated, not the ppl.
The U.S. wanted to destroy communism wihtout destroying the Russian ppl.
Israel is the only allie we have b/c they are against the majority of Arabs in the M.E. WE supplied Israel with the Cluster Bombs!
They don’t hate each other b/c of religion. It’s Economic/Socio/Political conflicts.
The Palestinians hate the Israelis b/c the Israelis stole the land in 1948, exiling millions. Bone up on ur Int. Relations.
I’ll try to make a vid response to help you (guy on the right) to understand the difference. You both are to one degree or another brainwashed. Cheers.
END THE WARS! US IS NOT SAFER NOW B/C of THE WARS. FACT!
Dear Ryan,
Thank you for your comment. I appreciate your lengthy response.
I like how you opened your post with “USA World Police”. In 2004, the theme song from Team America- World Police, “America, F*&^ Yeah”, was our unofficial theme song while I was on my first deployment to Iraq. During that deployment, along with my subsequent one, I saw much of Al Anbar Province including Falluja, Ramadi, Husaybah, Hit, Haditha, Rawah, Karmah, Abu Ghraib, etc. I flew into and out of Baghdad hundreds of times. I also saw Karbala, Balad, and Tikrit. I think this gives me reasonable credibility to pontificate on the nature of the region and our current and future role in it. Even if I did not have this experience, I believe that only through discussing these things can we arrive at better understandings, not by suppressing a person’s right to state an opinion.
Now, while on deployment, I did a lot of reading. I read Robert Kaplan, Michael F. Scheuer, Ergun Mehmet Caner, Chawkat Georges Moucarry, Michael R. Gordon, Bernard E. Trainor, Thomas P.M. Barnett (I’m sure you’re familiar), Henry Kissinger, among several dozen others. So, I respectfully beg to differ on my International Relations literacy. I’d be happy to consider other books from your own reading list. Or, better yet, I’d be happy to hear you support your assertions from books that you have read.
Now addressing specific points in your comment:
Iran’s intentions with so-called “peaceful” nuclear power are suspect at best. Their secrecy and rhetoric provide ample reason to call into question their true motivation.
If no country should have nuclear power, what alternative do you propose? Seeing as how France is almost 80% nuclear and the US is 20%, this seems like an idealistic philosophy with not much grounding in practicality.
Kindly define your definition of self-defense as an acceptable reason for going to war. Does this include defense of allies? What specifically do you disagree with in the doctrine of preemption? What, in your mind, is an acceptable alternative? If you were president, what would you do to prevent terrorists from getting WMD’s? Would you conduct military operations in other countries? If not, what possible affect could you have on terrorist operations? Is so, would you be willing to risk war to do so? These are questions that tie into the entire doctrine of preemption and self-defense in a world that was fundamentally changed after 9/11. The rules of international relations were changed that day.
The USSR fell apart only partly because of Afghanistan. The economic stagnation you refer to was due to the limitations of a communist economy and Reagan’s SDI and clandestine attacks against a Russian pipeline to Europe, as pointed out in Paul Kengor’s excellent book, The Crusader. Respectfully, I think comparing the current US situation with the situation in 1980’s USSR, is comparing apples to oranges.
Our spending in Iraq is put in perspective by looking at historical data on deficit spending as a function of GDP found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt. Of note, the US public debt in 1950 was 94% of GDP. Today, it is around 67%. The country didn’t cease to exist in 1950, nor in 1929 with the Great Depression, nor again in 1973 with the oil crisis. Of course our spending is a worthy discussion. But let’s have a little historical perspective in the discussion and give credit to the resiliency of our nation in dealing with difficult times.
As for Iran calling for a referendum on the Palestinian voting situation and the apologetic defense of Ahmadinejad’s public statements, consider this article that points to the Iranian press for the actual meaning of the leadership’s statements: http://www.campus-watch.org/article/id/5296. Perhaps the reason the US “missed the boat” as you say is because “In 2001, former Iranian president Hashemi Rafsanjani speculated that a Muslim state that developed a nuclear weapon might use it to destroy Israel.” (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4378948.stm) I commend the administration for it’s strong stance against Iran. If any of these statement’s have been lost in translation, I’m waiting for Iran to correct the interpretation…Iran, not their apologists.
Now for this point, one of my favorites. “The Palestinians hate the Israelis b/c the Israelis stole the land in 1948, exiling millions. Bone up on ur Int. Relations.” With respect, perhaps we should look at what came before 1948 for a more accurate assessment of why Palestinians truly hate Jews: complete and utter racism which has it’s deepest ties to religion. For a comprehensive article on the ties of Palestinian leader Grand Mufti, Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini to Adolf Hitler and his Final Solution, visit http://palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_grand_mufti.php. This article points out the Grand Mufti’s philosophy from early on as a young man- “Remember, Abbady, this was and will remain an Arab land. We do not mind you natives of the country, but those alien invaders, the Zionists, will be massacred to the last man. We want no progress, no prosperity. Nothing but the sword will decide the fate of this country.” So the intent to kill Jews was present from much earlier than 1948 or 1942 with Hitler’s Final Solution. Indeed, this quote highlights the fundamental differences in culture and value between Jews and Palestinians “We want no progress, no prosperity…the zionists, will be massacred to the last man.” So I guess you’re right. In addition to religioun, this is also social, economic, and political. As further pointed out in the article, “Haj Amin al-Husseini eventually died in exile in 1974. He never returned to Jerusalem after his 1937 departure. His place as leader of the radical, nationalist Palestinian Arabs was taken by his nephew Mohammed Abdel-Raouf Arafat As Qudwa al-Hussaeini, better known as Yasser Arafat. In August 2002, Arafat gave an interview in which he referred to “our hero al-Husseini” as a symbol of Palestinian Arab resistance.” It seems that not much has changed. By the way, the Israelis did not “steal” the land. The United Nations gave it to them in United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181, which proposed the original two-state solution. It was the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, in which five Arab countries attacked Israel, that lead to the current refugee situation which still fuels much of today’s conflict.
I also respectfully take issue with your closing point, “US is not safer now b/c of the wars. Fact!” If you have support for this statement, I’d be interested in hearing it. I, however, believe that this is a speculative statement and therefore cannot be claimed as fact. On the contrary, it can be shown that the US is safer because of the two wars. As support, consider this recent Wall Street Journal video with James Glassman of the State Department:http://online.wsj.com/video/who-took-the-risk-out/5E8609A6-FA46-4085-A0EE-6BA6C9FF46DB.html.
Thanks again for you comment. I look forward to you video response as well.
Until next time,
Cheers,
Joel (guy on right)
I appreciate the fact you think you served your countries interest in Iraq, and further that you think that gives you some understanding on Middle Eastern political history.
Regarding Iran, the Nuclear Non-Prolieration treaty states that all nations have the right to peaceful nuclear power.
I don’t know why you summarized the conflict. There are points which can be debated but the main ones are regarding current U.S. foreign policy and not a quibbling over the history as written by the victors.
I would recommend Robert Baher’s “See No Evil.” Scott Ritter’s book “Target Iran.” Also try and check out State of Denial by Bob Woodward.
We as human beings tend to rationalize our actions, even when we know deep down that they are wrong or contrary to our common sense of humanity. I see that with your pride of your missions in Iraq. What I know is that you’re paid to fight, the Iraqi’s aren’t. They were resisting a foreign occupying force that has created an embassy larger than the Vatican in Rome.
Re Nuclear Power; my belief is that man’s hubris tricks him to believing it can be used safely. In the short time since it’s adoption we have already seen Chernobyl and 3 mile Island. This is within 50 yrs. That is a very short period historically speaking. This means that we can expect more accidents like the recent news of the U.S. submarine that had been leaking radio active waste for years between Japan and the U.S.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_Non-Proliferation_Treaty
The U.S. would be violating the rights of Iranians if they attack or acquiesce in an attack against Iran. This is indisputable. All nations have this right. It’s not to be dictated by the U.S. because that would suggest an world of inequality and U.S. hegemony.
The Wall Street Journal video is a bias propaphandistic video whose organization is owned by Rupert Murdoch of Faux News. Rupert Murdoch who admitted that his news agency has an agenda, “to support the troops,” which really means to support the Wars.
The League of Nations established Israel and not the United Nations. Those countries invaded to “establish democracy” in a unified Palestinian state. If you want me to point out the illegal settlements one by one, or the hundreds of thousands of refugees that were evicted from their land after the ‘48 conflict. Israel used U.S. cluster bombs against the Lebanese and Palestinians in violation of International Law in 2006. After the cease fire they cont’d to drop them and beyond that they refused to disarm them after the ceasefire.
Just check out Scott Ritter’s speeches. He is a former Marine Intel. Officer and U.N. Weapons Inspector.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba3Tzl31SPA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiZrWIVR69s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XctgkYj5aVk
Please watch some of them. Thanks. Ryan.
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/07/24/isrlpa13798.htm Report by Human Rights Watch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BEsZMvrq-I
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax
(US overthrow of a Democratic P.M of Iran)
———————————————————-
quagmire |ˈkwagˌmīr|
noun
a soft boggy area of land that gives way underfoot : torrential rain turned the building site into a quagmire.
• an awkward, complex, or hazardous situation : a legal quagmire. <————————————–
(two of the above apply)
You said Iran is doing what any other country would do in the region. Amadinejad came to power b/c of the economy that the U.S. helped insured was stagnant.
Iran could be a cultural allie with the U.S. but the U.S. is fairly committed to balancing the Sunni Arab and Israeli balance. Iran would throw off the political interests of the others.
Clinton is a hawk and there is a reason she didn’t become V.P. or the Demcocratic Nominee. She played dirty, she was over agressive in foreign policy because she’s always been afraid of being painted as a soft woman.
In a hypothetical situation Iran would never drop a wmd on Israel. Their former supreme leader Khomeni said it would be unislamic to have a nuclear weapon.
Religion is a really small part of it. It’s a factor along with the political, territorial, ethnic, economic factors. To say its about religion is clearly oversimplifying it to a ignorant fault.
Islam seeks to conquer? How so? Tell me where you get that notion? Watch too much of the 300 movie? I sat and spoke with marines who were pleasent guys and we didn’t talk politics. We talked about how he thought it was cool blowing shit up and playing ps3 while getting paid for combat. One on one flight said he didn’t know why we were still there. Most Americans don’t understand what the mission is because the premise and logic of the war was false. Now what mission can be accomplished? To build a nation that was forged from dictatorshiops and in turn leave it to another? Let the Shia dominate? It’s not our place to decide the fate of such an ancient place.
Colin Powell said something to the effect of “If we break it we buy it.” The truth is that we broke it and we’re now financing it. Printing money and borrowing from China to support the Military Industrial Complex.
The interest of the military industrial complex which includes the petroleum industry has helped to shaped the policy of our country in horrible way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bqr5DVx3dw&feature=related
(Esienhower wars America about the M.I.C.)
We spend and spend because you so-called conservatives need to invent and exacerbate threats that include any corner of our effective empire. Here is an article about the 10 billion spent on the former Dictator of Pakistan, Genral Musharaff.
http://www.twq.com/07spring/docs/07spring_cohen-chollet.pdf
We undermined the Pakistani people by allowing him to continue his allowance while at the same time jailing Pakistani lawyers, sacking judges, and helping or turning his head when the ISI aided the Taliban.
Fact is the we need to debate whether we should distingquish between the Taliban who are fighting for control of Afghanistan and a small part of Pakistan. Remember these countries are in some cases arbitrarilly drawn by European powers at different times. There in lies the problem. Most of the Pachtuns identity does not begin with nationalism.
Take care.
What I meant to say in the end of my last comment is that we need to debate whether we should distinguish Al Qaeda from the Taliban. It should at least be debated.
Also, you linked to an biased article by a Israeli Journalist to examine Ahmadinejad’s statements? I don’t think he was advocating for genocide at all. Iran has the highest population of Jewish people out of all the middle east. They are represented in Parliament as well. The U.S. wanted to destroy the U.S.S.R without killing all Russian people. Same goes for his want of the Zionist regime to fall. He advocates a referendum which treats the votes of Palestinians and Israelis as equal.
Also there is what I was trying to say about the movie 300 was that I met Marines who told me that they were referred to as “Spartans” by their C.O.s They were taken out to somehow see that movie in Iraq. The right wing created that movie to promote the narrative of the U.S. being “defenders of freedom” and Persians (Iran) being Imperialist. Quite the opposite exist in reality. These Marines told me that they have coins, Military collector coins with the new logo of a Spartan’s shield and spear on it. This is propaganda but I was entertained by it in the iMax.
If you’ve read the books you mentioned then I’m sure you’re familiar with the CIA coined term, “Blow Back.” It’s a reference to the reactions and byproducts of our hazardous foreign policy.
i.e. Blow blow back from U.S. Coup in 1953 lead to the Islamic Revolution and these hostilities to the U.S.
Same goes for many countries in many different cases. I’d look at some old Ron Paul speeches and see if you understand his perspective on our militaristic imperialistic foreign policy.
Being the best country in the world doesn’t mean being the strongest military power. It means living by our ideals and laws and being an example for the world to look up to. Not being the great ironic punchline of the world.
Peace.
So being the politically savvy gents you are I’m sure you heard about Colin Powell’s endorsement of Democratic Nominee for President; Senator Barack Obama. Why is this? Why would the one of the best Soldiers, Generals, and Statesmen turn from the Republican Party? Well it turns out that he thinks the G.O.P. has become very far right wing on most of the issues concerning our country. He realizes that torture, cowboy free for all privatization and tax cut and spend policies have lead our country to the brink of bankruptcy.
You probably know that there are 150 thousand private contractors in Iraq that don’t have any rules of engagement to follow and that can’t be held accountable by the Iraqi government or by the U.S. government.
Private Contractors from KBR, a subsidiary of Halliburton, have tortured suspected terrorist. Fact is there is no accountability and you’re party Justin likes it that way. Their mantra is to privatize more to reduce cost and increase competition but that is just a ploy. They gave KBR, Haliburton etc. the contracts without any other bids being accepted. Cost Plus is another way they screw over we the people.
Watch the documentary “Iraq For Sale.”
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6621486727392146155
Empires cost money and we borrow to uphold ours. Look at our giant bases in Japan, Germany and Korea. The argument that we’re not an empire is that we don’t claim the territory that we conquer. We give it back. Not so. We’ve stayed there despite the objections of indigenous peoples.
Check out Chalmers Johnson’s book Nemesis.
The truth is that John McCain would have the U.S. fight in Iraq until we have hegemony over the country and it’s resources. To leave with anything less would be to lose face and acknowledge that America can’t do anything it wants.
Colin Powell I hope will serve in the Obama Administration for the benefit of all. But let me be clear that I don’t like the two party system. The GOP and the Democratic Party are two sides of the same coin. To use the cliche of the century we have to decide between the lesser of two evils and that clearly points us towards the Democratic Party.
Looking forward to your response.
Hey Ryan,
I agree with most of what you said in the last four replies. Thanks for your thoughtful and respectful comments. I especially love the support of my perspective of the Iraq war that Joel and some other Skull Session commenters don’t share. To try to understand and respect the perspectives of all middle east inhabitants is usually painted as “appeasement” by the pro-war Bush Administration… and is essential to victory in today’s entirely new world order!
On Powell, see my recent post about my agreement with you. His endorsement is huge. http://smskullsessions.com/blog/archives/344
On cost plus contracts and the privatization of the military, I agree with you… it’s morally and strategically wrong to have private contractors doing the job that soldiers should be doing. We should not overcommit our armed forces to the point of needing companies like KBR for “security”… and trust me, I’ve seen Iraq for Sale. However even though I’m not a Democrat, I don’t think that the Democratic party “likes it that way” at all. Perhaps you meant Joel in that comment?
On the empire, have you seen our session with my comparison of America to Rome? You’d like it: http://smskullsessions.com/blog/archives/285
On religion’s influence in the middle east, I agree that it’s not the only factor, but I really think that all of the other obvious factors like poverty and pure war-torn hatred are merely symptoms of the greater, underlying problem: religious extremism. Moderate religion is fine with me. Worship something you can’t see if you want, just don’t force it on me!
thanks again. now I look forward to a Joel rebuttal to some of this kumbayah gushing on this page! haha…
justin
Hey thanks for your input Justin. Though I take exception to my comments being called kumayahish, though I did lol.
Honestly the funny thing is that if you look at my post through the prism of the conventional media it might seem leftish. But all in all I agree with the right on immigration, less important social issues, and to some degree on abortion. My point is that Anti War is seen as radically left but Eisenhower became anti unnecessary war after Korea. So that left labeling stuff really gets me ticked b/c traditionally the G.O.P. was anti war and anti “nation building.”
Joel asked what specifically about the Bush doctrine do I disagree with. Well, the whole premise that a nation has the right to “preempt’ war by attacking first. I also disagree with Unilatteralism unless in self defense.
The reason I am against this is b/c the fact is the this was preventative war, not preemptive which would suggest an inevitability. There were no longer WMD’s in Iraq and he was a paper tiger. Certainly no threat. Even if he had them he had no delivery systems that could reach the U.S. So…preemptive war is language used to frame the debate, to paint a illusion of inevitable conflict and allow us to forget that we are attacking and invading first. (a.k.a. aggression.)
Preventative war has been tried and was used by Hitler to justify his conquest in many cases. Also we should debate if we should go to war for allies. I don’t think America really understands the NATO commitment as well as our marriage to Israel. Should we fight and die and risk our security for their country? I’m not talking about your hyperbolic genocide hypothetical. I’m talking about whether we should preserve the status quo for them by giving them helicopters and M16’s.
Also, not to get personal but do you consider yourself a Christian? If so do you think Jesus would think this is a just war? I know Joel that here we seperate religion from policy but I am curious as to whether you think God smiles when he sees George Bush say that God told him to invade Iraq. A Christian is supposed to turn the other cheek and be merciful. Certainly not to punish people who had nothing to do w/ 9/11. So all in all I don’t believe that a true Christian of humanitarian would serve in Iraq. I was 18 when it happened and I’ve seen the G.O.P. bastardize the American name and set back democracy as a viable, rational alternative do to a bad example set. Like I said, self defense is justified, maybe NATO is a good idea but that is only true if you get their input on things like Iraq too. The world hated this war from the start, as did most intelligent Americans.
Also Joel you don’t have to write an essay back to me. Let’s just debate the core of these ideas. I know it’s hard to think what you did there was in vein. Do you tink that Vietnam was in Vein? Or was that a crucial battle ground worth the sacrifice? In retrospect we all know Vietnam was a waste of the youth of a country. My uncle is still terribly messed up from it and many died not including the napalm burned children found in old news reels.
Agent Orange, a Chemical Weapon used by the U.S. has had devestation long term effects on the Vietnamese. On NPR they had a story about a young woman who’s parents weren’t even alive during the way and how they are all suffering from defects and diseases. We poisoned and killed so many that it had to come around.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6506882
We used to put cement in the milk trucks in Cuba. Just to dissuade them from supporting their communist regime. There are great documentaries with former CIA agents speaking about this.
The argument for WMD was partially that we know he has them we have the receipts. We sold them to him. I’m sure you know that and also know that we supported Sadaam in the aggressive illegal war against Iran.
If WMD was so important why not go to war with N. Korea? All this time we knew they were getting dirty and still nothing.
We didn’t b/c 1. Miltitary stretched to thin. 2. There’s a lot of ppl in N. Korea. 3. No oil or resource benefit to fighting with them.
Look, the idea of “prophetic dualism” or painting the world as a place where good and evil are battleing and that we are good is a bad ignorant way to create policy. We did it in the 80’s and it helped us rationalize the training of what was called the “Afghan Mujahadeen.” 20 years later these people whom we trained and funded prior, attacked us b/c of our military presence in Saudi Arabia. The fact that Americans defended it against Iraq humiliated the Saudis. So…are asset became our enemy…same w/ Saddam..before that the Sha of Iran..etc.
Think long term. Also regarding being called an “apolgist,” I would say that I don’t think Ahmandinjad spoke responsibly. I think Bush was far more irresponsible with his rhetoric by first labling them the “axis of evil.” As I said before the U.S. used to talk about defeating communism w/out meaning to kill all Russians or Vietnamese. I think you’re way off point here and many people can distinguish the Zionist regime from the jewish people who have a large community in Iran.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_in_Iran
Maybe by the time Joel responds we’ll have a new track for this nation!
-Ryan
Boooyaaah….Obama won! “I can see clearly now the rain is gone. I can see all the obstacles in my way. Gone are the dark clouds that had me blind. It’s gonna be a bright, bright, Sun-Shiny day.
You’ve got it, Ryan… Yes, we did!
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